SENATOR THE HON ANNE RUSTON

SHADOW MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGED CARE

SHADOW MINISTER FOR SPORT

MANAGER OF OPPOSITION BUSINESS IN THE SENATE

TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEW WITH GREG JENNET, ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING

26 September 2023

Subjects: COVID Inquiry, Daniel Andrew's resignation, Mike Pezzullo, Warren Mundine's National Press Club Address, the Voice Referendum

E&OE……………………………………

GREG JENNETT: Time now for our political panel, and Labor MP Luke Gosling is in Darwin. Welcome back to the program, Luke. And Liberal frontbencher Anne Ruston is in Brisbane. Welcome to you, Anne. I might start with you, Anne. In the context of the COVID inquiry announced by the Albanese Government last week, we've had the resignation of Premier Dan Andrews from Victoria. What impact do you say or do you think that might have on the breadth and depth of this inquiry now that a significant Premier has departed?

ANNE RUSTON: Well, you'd like to think that given the magnitude of the impact of the decisions that Dan Andrew made during the COVID pandemic, that he wouldn't use this as a further excuse to shy away from his responsibility to actually come and show some sunlight on what happened in Victoria, because there is no way in the world that we're ever going to be as prepared as we can be, should we ever face another pandemic, if we don't actually analyse the actions and the decisions that were made during the pandemic. So I really hope that this just isn't a further abrogation of his responsibility to actually face up to the people, not just of Victoria, but of Australia, and look them down the barrel and explain to them the basis of his decisions and, in some instances, I think probably admit to the fact that some of the decisions that were made in Victoria, as they were around the rest of the country, maybe they could have been made differently, maybe they could have been done better. But we can only hope that isn't the motivation for the reason for him resigning.

JENNETT: Well, he may well present, Luke Gosling, as a private individual. I know other now retired premiers have promised to do just that. Would you encourage the Victorian Premier outgoing to do that, Luke, to front and explain?

LUKE GOSLING: Oh, I'm sure that Dan Andrews would be more than happy to talk about his time in government and what an incredible time in government. It's been nine years. He's built Victoria. He's done a fantastic job. And, as someone from the Northern Territory and it's not my position to say whether anything was appropriate or not at the time, the inquiry will make sure that there's a whole range of people that give evidence to draw out the lessons learned. So I would just say that Dan Andrews, like the Liberal premiers during COVID, like all around the country, will be able to make contributions in order that we get the most out of it - Get all the lessons learned that we possibly can. And, you know, I just put it to the Liberal Party that, you know, this is about leadership and about just finding out how we can do things better next time. So you know, just go easy on the witch hunt and I think all those Victorians out there listening, you know, I think whether you like Dan Andrews or not, he's a bloke who cracked on and got things done and I think he'll be more than prepared to have his say, so that we get all those lessons learned.

JENNETT: All right. Just a political one back in your court, Anne Ruston. It's been a long run of outs for Victorian Liberals while ever Dan Andrews has been in charge there. We've seen a dynamic shift, I think, in Western Australia since Mark McGowan's retirement. Would you expect the same from your colleagues in the state of Victoria?

RUSTON: Well, look, I think certainly one thing is for sure that Dan Andrews reign has certainly been a reign that's gone on a little bit too long given some of the decisions and the things we've seen of recent times. I mean, nothing could have been more devastating to the people of Australia, particularly the athletes of Australia, than Dan Andrews' kneejerk decision to cancel the Commonwealth Games. So, I think it gives a great opportunity with Dan Andrews gone, that we can sort of reset the political platform in Victoria and give Victorians a real choice because, you know, we've seen over recent time some pretty devastating decisions by the Victorian Government. Nothing was more devastating than Melbourne being the most locked down city throughout the entire COVID pandemic. So, you know, it's time to start again and hopefully Victoria will actually reap the rewards of the benefit of Dan Andrew no longer being the Premier of Victoria, because his lack of transparency and the lack of accountability for his decisions has been a hallmark of his government.

JENNETT: Well, I'm sure the stakes only go up from here for the Victorian Liberals. Luke Gosling, I know you're a bit of a stickler for due process in government, which invites some questions now about the head of the Home Affairs Department, Mike Pezzullo. He's being investigated obviously, but when you've got former colleagues who worked alongside him, like Cabinet Minister George Brandis, saying his position is untenable, you'd have to think on the strength of some of these text messages that it is, isn't it?

GOSLING: Let's see what the Commission says. I mean, we don't take our advice from George Brandis, but everyone's entitled to their opinion. And, you know, I am sure the facts, the evidence will be taken into account by the Commission and we'll obviously listen to that advice as a government. I mean, we're not like the Liberals, I suppose. You know, just reflecting back there, people having a kick at Dan Andrews because he said we're not going to do the Commonwealth Games. I mean, it's about leadership, and we're not scared to do the right thing based on the advice and we'll follow that advice, but we will also follow due process and let the Commission do its work first.

JENNETT: All right. Well, that sounds like a fairly frank and fearless approach that Luke Gosling's adopting there. Anne Ruston, you must be confronted, though, to have read some of those published text messages, even where Mike Pazuello is venturing into models of meritocracy by stealth, running government through 4 to 5 powerful ministers. I mean, this strikes at the heart of democratic governance, doesn't it?

RUSTON: Well, look, I think you know I'd have to agree with Luke. There is a process that needs to be gone through here. You know, Mr. Pezzulo's stood aside. There's an inquiry into his actions, and the evidence will come out through that. And I think it's - you know, like Luke, I'd rather wait and let that process take its course and obviously, the findings of that independent assessment. Then, obviously, that will be the time when judgement needs to be made.

JENNETT: All right. A bit of local perspective from you, Luke, on how the Voice is tracking - Sort of pose the question in the context of Warren Mundine's National Press Club address today. You know, it was fairly strident, I suppose, in his advocacy because he's been leading the campaign. The question is one about division though. You know, in a community with a high indigenous population there, what's your assessment of what will be left after the 14th of October?

GOSLING: Yeah, I don't know what Warren Mundine had to say, but, you know, I had a conversation with Ken Wyatt this morning and - I bumped into him in Brisbane, I was over there doing some work - he's impressive. And I would be saying to people, if you're listening to Warren Mundine, have a listen to Ken Wyatt as well. 'If you don't no, vote no' is the most moronic thing I've ever heard and it just shows how devoid of leadership those who are promulgating the no campaign with those sorts of slogans are. Shouldn't it be that if you don't know, if you're not sure, well then read both sides? Find out. Google it, mate. I mean, that's what is required here is for everyone to take the responsibility, just to spend a bit of time to have a look at, well, if we knocked this back, what does this mean for the incredibly disadvantaged people of areas of Australia like the Northern Territory that I represent up here in Darwin, but worse out in the bush? I mean, the best thing about the Voice - if Australians can see that this is a uniting moment to make sure that we've got advice that will lift first Australians out of grinding poverty in certain areas of our country. It's just that we're a better country than having First Nations people living in grinding poverty. So I'm feeling - to answer your question, Greg - I'm feeling a bit of a surge, a bit of an awakening that people are really seeing the no campaign as a whole bunch of lies, exaggerations and really just trying to tap into people's fear.

JENNETT: Yeah, we'll see where that verdict comes on the 14th. Very, very quickly and finally, Anne Ruston. The assertion from Warren Mundine that Aboriginal people, indigenous people in this country are doing just fine. I mean, is that demonstrably true?

RUSTON: Well, look, certainly Warren speaks for his own unique perspective as an Indigenous man who has been in Indigenous communities all his life. But what I can say is, having been the Social Services Minister, I certainly know that some of the commentary that we've seen and some of the commentary we just had from Luke is not going to make one jot of difference to the lives of people who live in community. And I think what we need to be [interupted]

GOSLING: Yeah the Voice will.

RUSTON: Is absolutely realistic about the fact that if we want to make decisions and want to make real change in community, we have to actually speak to community. A voice that comes out of Canberra, with the same old faces, which we don't have any details on - so you can Google all you like, you can't get detail about what this Voice actually is. In fact, we know it's not going to start to be designed until after the referendum anyway. So I mean, that's a bit of a misnomer in terms of what you've just said, Luke. But the reality is, every single Australian, I believe, wants to see the lot of Indigenous Australians improve. We want to see gaps closed. But the only way we do that is by real practical applications on the ground - making sure that the children are going to school, making sure that they're being fed, getting rid of domestic violence out of communities, making sure that there's empowerment and jobs for Indigenous Australians. They're the real and practical things, and they only come from speaking to people in community. They are not going to come from the same old voices in Canberra.

JENNETT: Just because you took us there, Anne, if the voice was successful, are you committing to engaging in the design of it?

RUSTON: Look, I think if the Voice is successful, I think all Australians should get behind the decision of Australia and make sure that we make the best of it. But I will make sure that any time that I have an opportunity to be involved, that I'll actually be looking at the real and practical outcomes on the ground, because it's the people out in community that deserve our help.

JENNETT: All right, Luke, very last word to you. It sounds like it's getting fairly impassioned. You're feeling this keenly, obviously. Is that because you now fear that this is not going to succeed?

GOSLING: I just think we're a great country, and the abrogation of leadership that we've seen from the Liberal Party is just, it's a shame. I've heard some of them just openly talking about, you know, this is our chance to get some people who might vote Labor back onto our side, and that's their driving - that's their driving focus here. It's a political response. It's a political opportunity is what they see, which I just think is shameful for our nation. But the Australian people get it right, and I think the Australian people, given the opportunity to read both sides of this choice, it's a choice for the Australian people to make. And I do think they know instinctively that if people are given the opportunity to give advice in a way that can't be taken away, we're going to get better policy which will lead to better outcomes on the ground, and that's as simple as that. It's an advisory committee. It's nothing to be worried about.

JENNETT: Okay, well, either way we will have that verdict of the people soon enough and discuss it further through the 15th, the 16th and beyond the middle of October. Anne Ruston, Luke Gosling, thank you so much both on a fairly busy day for both of you. A bit of work involved, but appreciate your time enjoying the program.

ENDS